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Letters, 11/19: Prevent need for safe haven

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Wednesday, Nov 19, 2008 - 12:47:47 am CST

The Nebraska Legislature is in session to make adjustments to the safe haven law. I salute the Journal Star editorial (Nov. 14) that commented that no simple age change is going to obliterate the issues that have contributed to the dropoff of more than 30 youth, none infants, under the auspices of this legislation. Certainly, there are both personal and political adjustments needed to do more than merely sweep the debacle under the proverbial carpet.

Let me put forth another idea … and one that might be put in the category of prevention. Research shows that children born to a young, undereducated, single parent are much more likely to consider their childhoods unhappy and to resort to criminal activity. Somewhere between “unhappy” and “criminal” exists the state of behavioral maladjustment and challenge that seems to be behind many of the safe haven dropoffs.

The likelihood that unprepared youth will, themselves, become parents is increased by the zealous messaging of the pro-life community that exalts infancy and its beauty, simplifying the fact that parenting is a really tough job and that even the best of parents have no guarantee that their child will escape behavioral and mental turmoil.

I am pro-choice and subscribe to the statistically validated belief that, given a choice, pregnant women know if they have what is needed to nurture and raise a child. I hope those individuals who are profoundly pro-life become as zealous in seeking the services needed to remedy the trials that have resulted in the abandonment of these more than 30 youngsters as they are in calling for their births.

Mary King, Lincoln

Wait to judge after action

Regarding the Nov. 7 letter, “Obama wins, America loses,” I wonder if Gail Skinner has taught his children and grandchildren not to judge people based upon perception but rather on their actions.

Barack Obama doesn’t even take office for another two months and already Skinner has him leading people to the welfare office, discriminating against others, taking away religious freedom, encouraging abortions and not loving his country. Obviously, most Americans don’t subscribe to these beliefs, otherwise Sen. Obama would not be President-elect Obama.

Time will tell as to what kind of president he turns out to be, but I believe he will do great things for our country. It is much easier, on the other hand, to judge President Bush’s performance: a misguided and mismanaged war in Iraq with more than 4,000 brave soldiers killed, devastated families and communities, a country in financial crisis and our standing in the world greatly damaged.

I, too, hope and pray (for all children and grandchildren) that a more tolerant, caring, prosperous and proud America emerges these next four years.

Mike Mild, Denton

Form own moral opinions

Thanks to Merlyn Braunsroth (letters, Nov. 12), I have recently learned that we are no longer a Christian nation. However, I am a little upset to find out that we ever were a Christian nation. I thought church and state were separated by our founding fathers.

I don’t think “Christian moral values” have anything to do with why this country is great. Maybe you are referring to the “Christian moral values” that drove the people who would become Americans away from Europe.

I think it’s time we end the idea that church-going Christians have the market cornered on morality. Things aren’t all black and white. We need to think for ourselves and not just form all of our decisions around “Jesus said so.”

Justin Walsh, Lincoln


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Thanks Justin wrote on November 19, 2008 5:15 am:
" Good letter that is consistent with my on views. "

 Christian Nation wrote on November 19, 2008 6:27 am:
" Justin you totally missed the boat in history class. we were a nation founded on christian beliefs. the founding fathers came over here from england to be able to practice any religion they wanted not to be atheists. we were a nation based on christianity that would allow the people to choose whatever religion they wanted or no religion if thats what you want. but we used to be based on christian morals. the whole church and state thing is mainly that we don't have an offical state church. if you just look at the fact that most of the founding fathers were christian it's not that hard to see that they would have lots of values that would get in our country whether they wanted that or not. "

 Pro Life wrote on November 19, 2008 6:29 am:
" Here is a choice for young mothers. it's called adoption this is what happens when you can't take care of a baby you have because your to young. you let a good family raise the kid instead. and there are lots of people who want to adopt definatly no shortage. Problem solved!!! "

 mitchy_v wrote on November 19, 2008 7:31 am:
" Looks like someone else missed the history boat too. Our founding fathers were a mixture of deist and christians. Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and George Washington were deists. All of the aforementioned names wrote in books and letters they authored an utter DISBELIEF in the bible as the word of God, they all also stated on numerous occasions their disbelief in the deity of Jesus Christ, and the trinity "

 To Christian Nation wrote on November 19, 2008 7:32 am:
" What history books did your class use? Most of the Founding Fathers were agnostic. There is nothing in our governments early documents that refers to Christianity at all. I am a Christian. However, facts are facts. "

 Zoomie wrote on November 19, 2008 7:38 am:
" Christian Nation gives a great example of how the Christian Right conflate a belief in God with being Christian. Since THEY believe that their Christian God is the only God, they assume the Founding Fathers must also have believed in the same Christian God. In fact, some of the FF's were atheists; many were Deists (who believe in A God, but not a Christ, and who believe that God is generally disinterested in the affairs of man).

So, Christian Nation...if those Founding Fathers were all so Christian, and intended this to be a Christian nation, can you point us all to the obvious references to Christ in the Declaration of Independence? How about all the refs to Jesus in the Constitution? Oh, yeah! THERE ARE NONE!!! If as you claim, they were all so Christian, why would such learned men, writing what even they considered to be a great document like the Constitution (and even making more clear their intent with the Bill of Rights), how exactly did they apparently overlook references to Jesus Christ, which would have made cristal clear their intent this be a Christian Nation? "

 Err wrote on November 19, 2008 7:43 am:
" My history book also tells me the ‘Christian’ pilgrims welcomed the natives with open arms (even sat down to thanksgiving dinner with them), then they went around to their teepees from their Missions with Bibles in hand to preach the good word as the natives had no morals to base their life on. If the natives weren’t interested they said, “okay sir you have a nice day!” Then they opened up their plantations and gave jobs to needy African immigrants who were so eager to come to the new world they packed boats in droves. "

 Another thought wrote on November 19, 2008 7:48 am:
" Maybe those women/girls that don't think they are prepared to become mothers should take advantage of all the available measures to be sure they don't get pregnant - both before and after intercourse. Now there's another idea. I know, I know, nothing is 100% but some women use abortion as their only means of birth control and that disgusts me. I don't believe in making other people (read: baby) pay for my mistakes. I support adoption rather than careless birth control and the rallying cry of "but, it's my body and my choice" - should have been that concerned with her body and choices beforehand. "

 stignob wrote on November 19, 2008 8:09 am:
" More revisionists history from the left. There's quote after quote from the founding fathers regarding their beliefs but you can't tell them that. "

 You cant force good judgement wrote on November 19, 2008 8:11 am:
" Why on earth would you believe that someone who has been irresponsible (becoming pregnant as a teenager) would suddenly become responsible the moment the baby is born and know to give it up for adoption? You tell them how wonderful babies are and they don't want to give them up.

As for not wanting the baby to "pay" for the mistakes of the mother, who "pays" when the low income teenage mom keeps the baby? Who "pays" when the mom can't put food on the table? Who "pays" when the mom goes through abusive boyfriends? Who "pays" when mom gets pregnant over and over again by different guys? Who "pays" when dad doesn't pay child support? Who "pays" when mom can't get a job because she didn't finish high school and misses work all the time? Who "pays" when the kid grows up in a bad neighborhood and gets shot in a drive-by shooting? Who "pays" when that baby grows up and gets pregnant at 16 because that's the example she's grown up with? Who "pays" when the kid who has been surrounded by violence and poverty all their life starts carrying a gun...
Its a vicious, predictable cycle. Fix just one of the steps in the cycle and I'll reconsider your opinion. "

 Jack wrote on November 19, 2008 8:35 am:
" Well another round of pro life, pro adoption fodder. How many of you pro life, pro adoption crusaders have actually been adopted?? How many of you have learned the reality of your existence, learning that your life resulted from a 10 minute tryst? I could go on and on here, but sometimes adopted child, as well as the birthmother, endure extreme anguish for years and years, sometimes forever, over the choices made to give up a child for adoption. Take off your rose colored glasses, sometimes things are not as they seem from up on the pulpit. "

 Jody P. wrote on November 19, 2008 8:47 am:
" After nearly 2 weeks, the demonization of Gail Skinner continues unabated. I guess I understand now how they plan on achieving a post-partisan world. They'll just burn at the stake everyone who disagrees with them. "

 Sue wrote on November 19, 2008 8:49 am:
" Another thought - and of course you forget to mention the "sperm donors...." "

 Heres a quote wrote on November 19, 2008 8:54 am:
" 'Christianity is the vile and corrupt system ever to have shone upon man.' - Thomas Jefferson. "

 Macy wrote on November 19, 2008 8:55 am:
" Gee, Mike - Perception is reality, is it not?? Obama seemed to be pretty clear about the direction he wanted to take this country...Redistribute wealth (socialism), sign the Freedom of Choice initiative, which pretty much lifts any bans on abortion - not to mention his stance on prohibiting medical intervention for babies who survived an abortion (the only Ill state senator to support this cruel measure), and the list goes on. I agree, actions speak louder than words, but if we take him at his word, then Gail is not so far off the mark, is he??? "

 Religiosity wrote on November 19, 2008 8:59 am:
" Were those Christians who would burn young ladies at the stake because they might be witches? Thats sounds more like torture and terrorism.

What religion were those who slaughtered the Native American and the Buffalo?

Also curious as to what religion those who kidnapped and sold the slaves were?

Apparently there were thousands of people around back then, without any moral compass. "

 peb wrote on November 19, 2008 9:06 am:
" Can someone list the specific Christian beliefs on which the United States were founded? "

 Our Christian Founding Fathers wrote on November 19, 2008 9:07 am:
" That our Founding Fathers were Christian is as much a myth as Christianity itself. Many were, yes, but many were also Deists, certainly not beleiving in any christ, and many more still were atheists.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." -Thomas Jefferson

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." and
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it." -George Washington

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." -John Adams

This is but just a few. I would recomment reading some more of those history books. Not to mention that sticky little line in the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion[...]" "

 To Another thought wrote on November 19, 2008 9:17 am:
" It takes two to make a baby, dude. Maybe if guys made sure they always had and wore a condom, it'd be a good idea, too. Yeah, it's ultimately a woman that has to protect herself, but when we're talking young naive (immature) teenage girls who are often pressured into situatoins, they'll often do things that are not so smart.
I can't stand to see those comments about women and girls 'getting themselves' pregnant, so work on that. "

 Disgusted Too wrote on November 19, 2008 9:46 am:
" I'm disgusted by people who believe they know what's best for everyone else. I got pregnant as a teenager while on birth control. While I chose to have my daughter, I don't believe my choice is right for everyone else. It's still no one else's business. You mind your business, and I'll mind mine. "

 your right stigy wrote on November 19, 2008 10:03 am:
" Yup the founding fathers loved their christianity. I mean look at some of these quotes!
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. " Thomas Jefferson
Here is another one from Thomas Jeffeson
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." Thomas Paine
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! "
-John Adams

Look at all the christian Founding Fathers! Wow, they loved their bible and their jeebus. Or could it be you listen to the religious right and their mouth pieces at faux news too much? Turn off the billorushohannity. "

 Rockwell wrote on November 19, 2008 10:17 am:
" Our government is secular. Religous practice is the right of the individual to CHOOSE - not for the government to IMPOSE by attempting to legislate moral behaviors. Stignob, you make a valid point that many founders were of essential christian faith, but they were hardly of the strain that the evangelical right is today. The only revisionist history being pushed today is from the religious right.

You go practice your faith in your home or church (as is your right)- but I will fight every inch of the way any attempt to impose your religous beliefs on others via the government of the people. "

 Kim M wrote on November 19, 2008 10:31 am:
" You all seem to be blaming the mothers . What about the fathers? What about the fact that some of these mothers whether they are teens or older may suffer from post partum depression. Some of these mothers that have dropped off their babies in other states were pregnant due to rape or incest and felt they had no where to turn. Look to our own state- There is a lack of help for the older children that need mental and behavioral help. However unless you have great insurance or are on welfare(state aid) you can't get the help. Also some of these families might not know where to turn to get the help.
This is the same problem that affects the school system. Under Nebraska State law a child is entitled to all services they need from all the ESU's in the state. However the ESU's aren't allowed to suggest to a parent that they check into and use the services. If it hadn't been for the fact that my pediatrician used them for help for her twins my child might have been more delayed than he was.
Why is it that we can see all kinds of ads and every body knows about Planned Parenthood but no one knows where to turn to for the help their child needs?
You can get ESU services almost from birth. My child started getting help at 2 months. Why don't we here more about the agencies our children need? "

 stignob wrote on November 19, 2008 10:44 am:
" You want quotes you got them. Yes, the forefathers knew all to well what religion does to the govt. hence the freedom to practice whatever you believe, but they themselves were God fearing men. So continue in your revisionism history.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress "

 Julie wrote on November 19, 2008 11:11 am:
" Thank you Justin for your letter. I was raised with absolutely no teaching of Christianity or any other religion. I believe that I was raised well and am a good person. Just because I am not Christian does not mean that I am a bad, immoral person. And I do not believe that I or anyone who is non-christian should be judged because of that. It is possible to not believe in God and still be a good person. "

 Kim M wrote on November 19, 2008 11:20 am:
" Have you read the outh that your Congressman takes ? "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."
Same for the President V-pres-all sworn on the BIBLE
What were the last 4 words?????? "

 So Kim wrote on November 19, 2008 12:08 pm:
" Where does it say which God they are referring to? "

 So help me god wrote on November 19, 2008 12:11 pm:
" Which one? Christian God? Budda? Sun God? Bull God? "

 To Kim M wrote on November 19, 2008 12:25 pm:
" Believing in God doesn't make you a Christian. Believing that Jesus Christ is our saviour does. God could be Allah, or Buddha, or any other form of higher power. Really this debate could end if we abolish all references to specific religions and just put in a neutral ideas or faiths in their place. I consider myself to be a Christian but you will never hear me evangelizing the word of God because I believe that Evangelicals are heretics. "

 Whatever wrote on November 19, 2008 12:30 pm:
" Why is it that liberals preach tolerance but don't practice it themselves when it comes to opposing viewpoints? "

 Jeff wrote on November 19, 2008 12:36 pm:
" As stated earlier there were many founding fathers who shunned organized religion/Christianity, and probalby for good reason as pointed out by others. But there is ample evidence that many of their principles of government, writing styles, etc did borrow from ideas and principles in the Bible, which included situations where the government was kept separate from religion....and they certainly wrote many early documents that referenced "GOD"....... so why don't we quit splitting hairs. For those who want to say we were primarily a "Christian Nation" , it was mostly because that was the predomninate religion, and not because it was written into the government. And all the nasty things that have been done in the name of religion does give "religion" a bad name, but that is merely the failings of men and not of Christ and his teachings. "

 Nice try Kim wrote on November 19, 2008 12:37 pm:
" The Presidential oath required under the Constitution, in its entirety,is "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." No "So help me God."

The Constitution does not contain a specific oath for Congress, only the requirement that they "shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution."

So far as swearing on the Bible, there is no such requirement. The public swearing-in ceremony consists of Representatives raising their right hands and repeating the oath of office. No religious texts are used. Some members of Congress later hold separate private ceremonies for photo ops. When Keith Ellison was elected, he used a Quran in his private ceremony.

And most significantly, holding a belief in God is not synonymous with Christianity. "

 ImJustin2 wrote on November 19, 2008 12:37 pm:
" All of the quotes and justifications are well and good, but if the men who framed this country and it's governing documents INTENDED for America to be a "Christian Nation", they would have explicitly said so. They, in fact, did not so we are NOT a nation defined by religion. "

 Jeffersons Wall of Seperation wrote on November 19, 2008 12:52 pm:
" It is too bad that Separation of Church and State is a letter written by then President Jefferson in response to a the Danbury Baptists', rather than an actual amendment in our constitution. This paragraph is from that letter: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." If you want to read it yourself Simply search for Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter on the web. We would be a much better nation IF this was a part of our constitution. "

 Kim M wrote on November 19, 2008 1:03 pm:
" Which God do you think they were refering to when they use the BIBLE?
Yes i too believe there is only 1 God. Whether you are 'Christion"-Jewish-Muslim etc. We just call them different names.
However the point being-We swear on the BiBle for Government Offices. Our pledge states One Nation Under GOD....
THe Supreme Court Building has statues of Moses holding the Ten Commandments. Where is the seperation of Church and State there?

We Do Not Say One Nation Under Buddah OR Allah at least not yet........ Should we change the very foundation Our Great Country was formed on. "

 Zoomie wrote on November 19, 2008 1:09 pm:
" Stig, as usual, fails to bother to actually read what we're discussing. Yes, congratulations, you've presented evidence some of the Founding Fathers were religious.

Problem is, no one is disagreeing with that! The discussion is - were the Founding Fathers mostly Christian and did they intend the U.S. to be a Christian nation? And nothing you've posted says otherwise than the consensus here, which is No, they did NOT intend this to be a Christian nation! Why would they, since many (perhaps most) weren't even Christians! So before getting yourself all in a lather in opposition to the lefties, perhaps you should see if you're not actually agreeing with them, even as you try to insult them! Because, ultimately, it isn't the lefties who look a bit foolish, Stiggie... "

 Hop wrote on November 19, 2008 1:12 pm:
" To: Heres a quote

This is the second time I've seen the supposed quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson, 'Christianity is the most vile and corrupt system that has ever shone on man.' in this comment section. After some considerable research I can find no reference to this quote anywhere on the web.

Your quote seems to significantly conflict with these two documented Jefferson quotes:
"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813.
AND
"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." --Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801. "

 JohnR wrote on November 19, 2008 1:33 pm:
" Macy, where do you get your info from? "...his stance on prohibiting medical intervention for babies who survived an abortion (the only Ill state senator to support this cruel measure),..." HUH??? He never did any such thing, and he never voted as the only one in support of anything while in the IL State Senate! He did vote against a needless bill that would have made abortion more difficult, needless because it was already illegal in IL to allow a fetus surviving an abortion to be killed or even allowed to die! An investigation by numerous agencies found in fact no such thing had ever happend in IL (only claimant that it had was a nurse, and abortion opponent, but her evidence collapsed when it turned out she couldn't even get straight the days she had worked or who had been on duty when she supposedly saw babies allowed to die).
Wealth distribution? You mean like when Republicans take billions of our tax dollars and use them to reward Halliburton for building showers for our soldiers in Iraq that electrocute them? Every politician "redistributes" wealth! And besides, wealth redistribution isn't socialism (dictionary defines it as an economic system whereby the gov't owns the means of production...so I guess Bush is a socialist!).
Sign the Freedom of Choice Initiative? Which is what? Do you mean the Freedom of Choice Act (S.1173)? If so, it is sitting in the Judiciary Committee, and has never even been voted on in the Senate, much less the House, so how exactly is Obama going to sign something that isn't even a Congressionally approved bill yet? "

 Zoomie wrote on November 19, 2008 1:42 pm:
" Hate to break it to you, Kim, but most politicians DON'T swear their oath of office on the Bible. Remember Rep Ellison of MN? Elected in 2006, drove the Christian-Right crazy, because he was the first Muslim ever elected to the House of Representatives. They all were up in arms over his taking his oath of office on the Koran instead of the Bible. Except...turns out, when Reps take their oath, they stand, en masse, in the Well of the House, raise their hand, and as a group sweat to uphold the Constitution and their office (and the "so help me God" part is optional, not mandatory). They don't use a Bible, or any other religious book. You often see photos of them with their hands on the Bible, but those a PR photos taken AFTER the formal swearing-in ceremony. Senate does it much the same way. And Presidents get to decide for themselves what book they place their hand on, if any (at least one President used a book of poetry).

But you're still ducking the actual question - if we're a Christian Nation, and the Founding Fathers intended us to be a Christian Nation, where is ANY reference to Jesus Christ in any governmental founding document??? And what Bible do I think they meant? Well, if you're Jewish, a really, really different Bible than Christians use! And for that matter, even the Catholic and most Protestant Bibles are different! So I guess I'd like to know, which Bible do YOU think they meant! "

 CS wrote on November 19, 2008 1:44 pm:
" Herer we go again. What are they teaching in History? I can refute your claim, Christian Nation, in about 4 seconds on Google, or by consulting my personal library at home. Wher, oh WHERE did you read that a majority of the FF were Christian? You were cheated. "

 JohnR wrote on November 19, 2008 1:53 pm:
" Here is my favorite Jefferson quote (and its NOT in dispute that he said it):
“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own”

or

"We discover (in the gospels) a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication”

or

“The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust” "

 Demon wrote on November 19, 2008 2:10 pm:
" To Jody P. You wrote: 'After nearly 2 weeks, the demonization of Gail Skinner continues unabated.'
The gist of Mr. Mild's (apt name) letter was, let's wait until Obama actually takes office and does something before we start criticizing.
Oh the horror!
How can he be that mean spirited? "

 To Hop wrote on November 19, 2008 2:11 pm:
" The alleged Jefferson quote you cannot locate is probably a corruption of this passage from a letter Joseph Priestley:

"...those who live by mystery & charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy, the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man, endeavored to crush your well earnt, & well deserved fame." - Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, Washington, 21 March 1801 "

 CS wrote on November 19, 2008 2:12 pm:
" Kim, the Pledge didn't say anything about God until the Communist scare in the 50's. Mony has not had "In God We Trust" on it consistantly through history either. It started during the Civil War, but then went away again. "

 CS wrote on November 19, 2008 2:22 pm:
" "The Christian Philosophy, the most sublime and benevolent, but the
most perverted system that ever shone upon man.'' You didnt look very hard, Hop- I found it in about 5 minutes. Jefferson's letter to Joseph Priestly, March 21st 1801, referenced also in a letter from John Q. Adams to Jefferson on July 16th 1813. Here is the text of the Jefferson letter to Priestly: http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl137.htm. "

 MarkyMark wrote on November 19, 2008 2:42 pm:
" We have freedom of religion here in the United States. The founding fathers had a wide variety of religious and secular views.

Religion has no place in government. One has to look no further than the Middle East to see what a disasterous mix that is.

Who cares what any of the founding fathers religious views were. As long as it is kept out of our Government, all is well. "

 STF wrote on November 19, 2008 3:22 pm:
" Nope, the gist of Mike's letter was to call out Gail Skinner on his beliefs and take him to task for writing his letter. If Mike was mearly opining to wait until Obama actually takes office and does something before we start criticizing he would have said so without bringing Skinner's name into his letter. It takes a brave person today to even write a letter to the editor. "

 Lenin wrote on November 19, 2008 3:55 pm:
" Speaking of quotes: "In order for the party to succeed we must remove the false gods and beliefs of the people and replace them with the one true god, the state. Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism. Vladimir Lenin "

 dfb wrote on November 19, 2008 4:09 pm:
" I see Kim M has been listening to the wingnuts on right wing talk radio that is preaching revisionist history. The oath the president takes is defined in the Constitution. Article 2 states the oath or affirmation he takes. It is as follows:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

No where in there is your 4 word reference. The president is not even required to have a "Bible" or any book present although most do.

Under Article 6, the Constitution states what type of oath or affirmation that members of congress and others take. It is:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

It even goes as far as stating that there is no "religious test" is required.

Now, where does it state they must have to use your 4 word phrase? "

 Nina wrote on November 19, 2008 4:14 pm:
" Mary's letter brings out a great truth. That is, that victims beget victims, down through the generations, unless by their own resources or another's help they learn to make wise choices and learn to be their own best friend, instead of working against themselves. This has always been true, but these days it's easier than before to take up unwise behavior because opportunity abounds. Under-educated, poor, parents who are also single, too young, and have low self-esteem, are not likely to parent stable, happy children. That's why it's important for those of us who are more fortunate to step in as friends, neighbors, schools, churches, communities, or however we can, to help. Only by showing them how someone can be relied upon will they learn to be reliable. "

 WHY wrote on November 19, 2008 4:41 pm:
" all this angry indignant arguing about Christianity and whether our country was founded on it?? Why are people so angry and afraid of Christians? Was this the kind of talk that went on before the holocaust? Sometimes I just wonder. I don't understand. The number of angry self-righteous judgmental people who call themselves christians (and embarrass the rest of us) are a very small group. Stop villifying an entire group of people based on the behavior of a few, please. "

 Hop wrote on November 19, 2008 4:47 pm:
" To CS:

Nice try, but Jefferson was talking about the clergy, which is not the same as Christianity. The full quote is: "Those who live by mystery and charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy,—the most sublime and benevolent, but most perverted, system that ever shone on man,—endeavored to crush your well-earned and well-deserved fame."

Jefferson is saying that Christianity had been “perverted” by its orthodox doctrines like the Trinity, Incarnation and Atonement and once those are stripped away contains some of the most benevolent, sublime and moral teachings.

That's a far, far, FAR cry from 'Christianity is the most vile and corrupt system ever to have shone upon man.' or even your truncated quote. "

 For the record Im Adopted wrote on November 19, 2008 6:20 pm:
" Teaching children about sex and how to prevent pregnancies as well as STD's is the ONLY way to curb the issue of unborn and unwanted children. Trust me I am all for adoption and could not have ever had an abortion. But I also had a christian family who wasn't afraid to say the word SEX at home. I also had a family who I knew would support any decision I made. Too many girls in this country don't have a support system or are taught to value sex. So I cannot say that a girl cannot drop her baby off at a hospital or get an abortion.

Why aren't the fathers being blamed? Easy they can walk away. They don't get morning sickness, give birth, get scolded by society. Nobody calls them a slut or worse. In fact our society makes them heros. Real studs!! "

 CS wrote on November 19, 2008 7:12 pm:
" Hop, when you strip away all the Trinity, and atonement, and all that, you end up with *gasp* basic ethical behavior that aboriginies, pygmys, free-thinkers, and atheists have been abiding by for centuries with no ancient sky-god being wagging their finger at them from across the cosmos. When you strip away all the crap 'religious' behavior is no different from Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, or most any other faith on the planet. I believe Jefferson is pointing out that there is no need for 'religion' as it is packaged and served to the masses-we could figure it out for ourselves. In any case, I was pointing you to the source of your 'mystery' quote, not selectively quoting. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't have included the source link. You can read it and make up your own mind. "

 Hop wrote on November 20, 2008 11:52 am:
" CS - My point was that the quote was erroneous, and I believe purposefully so.

I'd also say that while Thomas Jefferson was a great man in many ways, he was also flawed. That a man who wrote so eloquently about freedom and liberty would also own slaves and father children by some of them, leaves me wondering about his principles. So forgive me if I don't consider him the end-all authority on morality, never the less religion. "

 Out of Context wrote on November 20, 2008 5:42 pm:
" There is not a quote up here that is in text. That is why there is such a large misunderstanding of the intentions of the Founding Fathers. Try to sit back and look at the context of the quote instead of surfing the web for support to your arguments. "

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